Below is a transcript of an interview with Sen. Rand Paul, a Republican of Kentucky, aired on June 1, 2025 on “The Nation Facing Margaret Brennan.”
Margaret Brennan: We are now going to Republican Senator Rand Paul, who joined us this morning from Lexington, Kentucky. Good morning.
Senland Paul: Good morning, Margaret.
Margaret Brennan: You just heard the Treasury Secretary say a lot, denying the potential price increase that retailers may have come from tariffs. He also downplayed the fees for taxes and border bills that had just passed the house. Do you agree with his math?
Paul Sen: Well, math doesn't really add up. This big and beautiful bill is it a tool to increase military and border spending. New spending is about $320 billion. From a perspective, that's more than all the layoffs we've found so far. Therefore, the increase in expenditures invested exceeded the reductions of the Governor. When you look at border walls only, they have 46.5 billion border walls. Well, the current CBP estimate is 6.5 million per mile. So if you travel 1,000 miles, it's 6.5 billion, but 46 billion. So they exaggerated the cost of the wall eight times. Therefore, a lot of new expenditures must be offset. But essentially, it's a bill from military industrial complex advocates who are filling the military budget. There will be a lot of extra money. Look, the president has basically stopped the situation of no new funds without new legislation. So, I think they want too much money. Finally, the way you add it to see if it actually saves money or increases money, is how much debt they are going to borrow? There are $5 trillion in two years, which is a huge amount.
Margaret Brennan: Right. That's the number the secretary is mocking. The president has noticed some of your skepticism, and he did tweet yesterday that if you Rand Paul voted against his huge border and tax bill, the people of Kentucky will never forgive you. Do you think it's a threat, do you know if there are three other Republicans you'll join you to block it from passing?
Paul Sen: I had a good conversation with the president this week about tariffs. He did most of the conversation and we didn't quite agree with the results. But when I returned to Kentucky, I talked to the Bureau of Agriculture, which was opposite to the tariffs. I spoke to the bourbon industry that is opposite to the tariffs. I talked to the cargo company, UPS, DHL and all their pilots were against it. I talked to someone with hardwood floors. I talk to people who sell houses and build houses. I have no organized business interests in Kentucky to tariffs. So, I think it's worth discussing, and it's worth remembering that Republicans used to lower taxes. Tariff is a tax. So if you tax the private sector, it's bad for the private sector.
Margaret Brennan: Well, you know, we hear from other senators, they also get complaints from the people in their area, but they will line up. Do you have three other Republicans standing with you to stop the bill?
Paul Sen: I think there are four people at the moment and I would be very surprised if the bill was not modified in a good direction. Look, I want to vote. I want to cut taxes. I used to vote for tax cuts. I hope the tax cuts are permanent, but at the same time, I don't want to raise the debt ceiling of 5 trillion. So I told him that if you deduct the debt ceiling, I would most likely vote for the agreement on the rest of the bill without having to be perfect for my liking. But I can't - if I vote for $5 trillion in debt, he stays in Washington and cares about debt. We will lose it. Republicans can own debt once they vote.
Margaret Brennan: But, as we all know, the leader is in a close position here. He needs a car to raise the debt ceiling. Otherwise, you have to turn to Democrats to do the job. What was the White House’s response when you asked the president for this?
Paul Sen: Well, historically, the debt ceiling has been rising, it always goes up, and I don't recommend that that's not, but the people who should vote for it are the people who vote for the expenses. Historically, all Democrats have voted for raising the debt ceiling, with about 15 government Republicans voting for it. This will be the first time a Republican votes. This will be the first time that Republicans have debt. They already have the expenses. In March, we continued, not me, but most Republicans voted to continue Biden’s spending levels. So you remember the campaign, everyone was talking about diadrenaline and Biden inflation and Biden spending levels. Well, Republicans have all voted to keep Biden spending levels, which is why the deficit this year will be $2.2 trillion.
Margaret Brennan: So, you think this is bad politics for Republicans. Some of your Republican colleagues, such as Josh Hawley, say the Medicaid changes are bad politics for American workers and your party.
Paul Sen: I think this is a bad strategy. I think tax cuts are good for the economy. When we passed the tax relief in 2017, the economy grew gradually. Historically, we have the lowest unemployment rate. This is the first time Trump's administration has achieved a huge achievement. They should only complete this tax without participating in the debt portion to satisfy them.
Margaret Brennan: When you were with us in the last time in March, you talked about a conversation with Elon Musk, who, as you know, just left the government. You filed a request for revocation and Congress has signed about $500 billion in paws. We now know that the White House will ask Congress for some withdrawal this week. It sounds like only $9.4 billion, and it's PBS, NPR, and foreign aid. Is this really the best strategy? Do you think there are 51 Republican senators joining?
Paul Sen: First, I will vote for spending cuts. Better and better. If the deficit this year is 2.2 trillion, then that would be very, very small, and if you cut $9 billion, the deficit would be 2.191 trillion. It really doesn't have a process of substantially changing the country. We should do it. This is a low hanging fruit. This refers to all this crazy spending of money spent on gender change actions in Colombia’s transboundary Guatemala. Yes, it should be cut -
Margaret Brennan: - Sesame Street.
Paul Sen: - I have a month's amendment - Sorry -
Margaret Brennan: This is Sesame Street. It is PBS and NPR.
Paul Sen: Yes. I think, yes - you are right. We'll see if there's a vote to cut it down. I don't think we need government programming anymore. We have a lot of choices on the internet and a lot of choices on TV, but in the past, my preference has been to reduce everything, not cut a lot of things. So what I did in the past was to come up with a penny planning budget, we cut a percentage of everything, but it included the rights, or it didn't actually work. Once the rights are excluded, there is not enough money to cut funds, so you can never balance by looking at rights.
Margaret Brennan: The budget director for another program this morning said they may not need to use this revocation because the White House has other tools because it is the paw. Do you think they need to attend Congress? Is this too free?
Paul Sen: Well, they - well, they absolutely have to use recession - withdraw, which is done by a simple majority of the Republicans. No filter feet. So, it's a great tool to cut expenses. If they don't use it, it would be a huge opportunity. But I will tell you that they tried it in the first Trump administration. It's not their fault. They sent a small 16 billion because the two Republicans went another way, but failed. So we will see what will happen. But if we can’t even cut down the benefits we provide to other countries, then I feel bad about this country if we can’t cut down on foreign aid benefits. You know, interest rates are rising. We have a hard time selling debt. We have many problems.
Margaret Brennan: Senator Rand Paul, we will be back soon.