(This story contains major spoilers from the season 21 finale of Grey’s Anatomy, “How Do I Live.”)

Grey’s Anatomy warned viewers that an explosive finale was coming.

Heading into the season 21 ender, “How Do I Live,” that aired on Thursday night, the ABC medical drama’s official social media account posted two throwback photos of the memorable two-part finale back in season two (“It’s the End of the World” and “As We Know It”). That tense bomb-in-a-body-cavity episode saw Meredith Grey (Ellen Pompeo) with guest stars Christina Ricci and Kyle Chandler trying to keep a bomb lodged in a patients’ chest from exploding.

“Same vibe,” wrote the ABC account.

This time, instead of a bomb, the mother (guest star Piper Perabo) of a child patient who had gone unresponsive after brain surgery brings a highly flammable acetylene tank into the operating room and forces Amelia (Caterina Scorsone) to perform a high-risk surgery to save her daughter. Interns Simone (Alexis Floyd) and Adams (Niko Terho) are among the small group and once the hospital gets word of the hostage situation, Meredith (Pompeo) takes up the case to save her sister-in-law, nephew and the others.

Meredith ends up saving the day by figuring out how to treat the young patient so Amelia can successfully finish the surgery. When the mother relaxes with relief, the tank topples over. To everyone’s shock, nothing happens. That’s when she reveals the tank was empty — she never wanted to hurt anyone, she just wanted to save her daughter.

But just as the episode moves on to wrap up other storylines with the doctors — including Jo (Camilla Luddington) telling new husband Link (Chris Carmack) they’re having twin girls; Warren (Jason George) and wife Bailey (Chandra Wilson) realizing he doesn’t have a job at Grey Sloan; Simone and Adams getting back together (despite her having slept with a stranger played by Trevor Jackson, and not telling Adams); and Teddy (Kim Raver) officially walking away from husband Owen (Kevin McKidd) — Amelia and Adams are told that the tank wasn’t empty to start; the valve must have been opened, leaking its flammable contents onto the operating floor above.

The final moments of the episode then showed several of Grey‘s surgeons on that operating floor — including and most prominently Link, along with Jules (Adelaide Kane), and Adams running upstairs — before following Meredith down on the ground and safely away from the building. That’s when the explosion happens. The last shot is on Meredith as she turns around and stares in shock at the blast. Warren is seen running back to help, while Meredith stares in horror at the flames escaping the hospital floor up above.

Below, showrunner Meg Marinis confirms that no one — except Meredith and Warren — is safely alive heading into the already renewed season 22 (which won’t return until the fall). She talks casting challenges amid industry-wide budget cuts, and shares insight into how she and Pompeo discuss her onscreen role and how she and the writers, who go back into the room on Monday, will tackle the high-stakes task of choosing which characters will survive: “If we can get the writers upset then we know we’re doing it right. It’s supposed to make people upset (when someone dies).”

***

Why are you torturing us all summer with this cliffhanger?!

I know, I know. It’s all I got left right? Now that we’re in streaming, it’s the thing that we writers at networks still have: summer. We make you wait for three months!

You went from a celebratory wedding episode with Jo and Link into this traumatic cliffhanger finale. The Grey’s Instagram account warned viewers something big was coming with that throwback post. People were freaking out on social media.

I’m glad they posted that. It is the same vibe in the sense that we’re stuck in an OR with something that’s possibly explosive, where people we know are worried if something is going to blow up. It’s kind of the same here as it was then with that bomb-in-a-body-cavity episode where it wasn’t somebody who is inherently evil. That was an accident back in season two and this time it’s a mom (played by Perabo) who doesn’t think she has something explosive. She’s playing the long game in order to get her daughter the treatment she needed, but she wasn’t educated on the tank enough to know that it wasn’t empty. So I love that we twist it in the very end. You think everything is going to be just fine. But if you’re a long-term Grey’s fan, you hear that music start to pick up in the end and you know that it’s not going to be fine.

We’ve spoken about how you look to Grey’s past to inspire what you do now. Did that season two ender inspire this story?

It wasn’t that literal. When I knew I wanted to have Ellen (Pompeo) in the episode, I wanted to give her a nostalgic hero moment. Even though she’s not in every episode and she wasn’t necessarily on this case (with the child patient named Dylan), if we have her in the finale and we intentionally put Lucas in there with Amelia and make it Meredith’s family, we can give her the hero moment. Just like the bomb-in-a-body-cavity episode, because it’s Meredith, she would do anything to save the hospital and the people who are in it.

You did at least confirm that Meredith survives the blast. Did you debate that, or did you always know you would end on her?

(Laughs) I always knew I would end on her.

You had to cast the right person to pull off the three-episode guest role of Jenna, someone who could play a mother’s emotional despair quietly at first, but then build to be a believable threat. How did you land on Piper Perabo?

What I said to casting was that it needs to be someone who has a girl-next-door type of look where you would never think they were capable of doing this, but then on the other hand, it needs to be someone who has the ability to pull this off. They sent us a bunch of options. We knew it was going to be a three-episode arc. We have been building towards this since Amelia started the “impossible case” arc, we always knew it was going to climax in this way.

We’d been thinking about it for a long time, who’s going to play this mom. We also went back and forth: Is it a father? Is it a mother? It’s much more interesting to me if it’s a mother, being a mother myself and knowing that you would do anything in order to save your kid. So her name was on this list and I thought, “Can I get her? She’s such a catch. Would she be interested, and is she available?” Then I started doing a deep dive of her. I watched her on Yellowstone and as soon as I saw her in the (prison) jumpsuit, it was perfect.

They sent her the script and set me up on a call with her that I, of course, took in the middle of a laser tag center when I was there with my son. It was a perfect working mom moment where I was trying to sell her on this part of a mother. She was like, “Where does it go?” I pitched her the story and she was like, “Oh, this is very cool.” She became such a collaborative partner in building the deterioration of the character, with hair and makeup and her demeanor. She practiced with that flint (on the tank) for a whole weekend. She was so game and her performance is just breathtaking, especially her breakdown.

And she did that the same performance like 35 times, even when it wasn’t her coverage. At the end of the day, I was like, “Do you have a headache?” I don’t know if it was actually 35 times, but there’s a lot of people and a lot of different angles and camera setups, and even if the camera wasn’t on her, she gave the same performance.

Before I got to the explosion twist, I was going to ask if you could speak as the doctors in that room and weigh in on what Jenna’s punishment should be. But now, that’s a lot more complicated. Is Piper’s a character you want to continue with?

It was a three-episode arc. I feel like the reality will be that she’s going to face some sort of legal ramification. But, for the doctors, I think it’s probably split. I think Meredith and Amelia probably have more torn opinions on what happened, being mothers and having more of perspective than our young doctors. I think Lucas (Adams) is probably like — that woman is crazy and deserves to go to jail.

You left a lot of characters in harm’s way. Is Link on the top of that list, since he’s the doctor we actually see in an operating room?

Well, I feel like a lot of people are probably sitting in operating rooms, so unless you saw them and where they were when that explosion went off, I don’t think we can say anyone is necessarily safe.

Adams was also running up to the operating floor, so we have to add him to the list then.

Jules was also on the OR floor.

So was Bailey and Monica (Natalie Morales). Is Meredith the only one who is for sure safe?

We did see Warren running back into the building (from outside). We saw Jo outside the building, but we didn’t see her leave, so it just depends on what exit she took, I guess.

And Teddy maybe left the building, since Bailey was told that no one had seen her for hours. Why did you focus on Link? Is that because he and Jo just had this very happy wedding? And did you debate who you were going to show in that operating room?

Yes. (Laughs) And it was a debate. I didn’t even really talk about that with the writers. When I wrote the script and I was going through that final montage, I was just like, “I’m going to put these people here.” Then even after the table read, I added somebody on that OR floor. I put Jules going up there.

Did those actors read into that, especially Chris Carmack?

Yeah. I’ve had conversations with some of them, but they all know it’s a Grey’s Anatomy cliffhanger and they know every year they never know what to expect. They’re here for it. They like to keep our stories exciting and fresh. When he was filming the scene, he did a couple of funny takes. Also our nurse Linda (Linda Klein) is in that scene.

When you wrote the finale, did you know then who might not survive? Or have you been thinking about it and will decide when you go back?

We go back in the writers room on Monday. I definitely have thoughts. Whether or not those thoughts change, that can always happen. I haven’t put pen to paper yet, but it’ll be very soon that I do.

Can you take me inside the writers room on these decisions. Is it like Hunger Games where you are each standing up and fighting for your favorite characters?

I don’t know if we go as far as Hunger Games. (Laughs) Who knows, it might be that on Monday, we’ll see! Everybody wants to hear each other out. But even in the last two seasons with what you saw this year, we had to reduce the cast a little bit (because of industry-wide budget cuts), and everybody has very passionate feelings about their favorite characters. But if we can get the writers upset then we know we’re doing it right. It’s not as satisfying a story if people aren’t upset when someone leaves. It’s supposed to make people upset and sad, so I’m sure there’ll be some arguments. But I’ve been persuaded before to change my mind on things.

The state of the industry brought about those cuts you mention, where you had to even skim back airtime with the main cast this season. Are you going into another season that’s will be similar, where you’ll have to make those tough decisions gain?

We don’t know those decisions yet. I don’t think anybody’s budget is growing, unfortunately, these days. But there are ways to meet budgets that don’t necessarily mean you’re saying goodbye to people. So those are all ongoing conversations, and they’re not fun.

Yet you still brought back many past characters. Do you have to get creative in other places so you can afford those casting surprises?

Yeah, it’s a creative conversation and you just have to make sure that you don’t sacrifice the story. There’s a lot of strategy, a lot of thinking and it’s just a different way of writing. But you know, we’ve been at this for a while, so we’re pretty good at figuring it out.

A lot of the recent Grey’s exits have been mutual and/or pre-announced departures. I’m trying to think, who was the last character who got killed off or left that we didn’t know until it aired?

Was it Deluca (Giacomo Gianniotti) maybe? I think he might have been the last death. Maggie (Kelly McCreary) left — she survived, but that wasn’t announced. It’s really hard because so many things get out before you want them to get out. But, what can you do? You just have to hope that it doesn’t get out.

Going into finale, you did tease that Teddy was going to do something she’s never done. Should we believe she was officially leaving Owen in her final scene in the finale?

It’s kind of twofold. She did a surgery that had never been done before, creating a whole new synthetic biggest-artery-in-the-body kind of thing. And also that she chooses herself, yes.

Presuming she survives and that Owen survives, are you looking forward to exploring what they look like after the Teddy and Owen book is closed? That book is very long.

That book is very long, and obviously, they’re forever tied to one another, when you’re in war with one another and have children together. But I am interested in it. It was really interesting to see that story play out this season and to see both of those characters still able to kind of light up and smile with other people. I think a lot of people were wondering where their (open marriage) experiment was going, but Nora (Floriana Lima) really fell in love with Owen and I think Teddy really had something for Cass (Sophia Bush), even though Cass is happily married. It was really fun to see those two characters have chemistry with others and I feel like they really did have chemistry between the actors, too.

You really complicated Simone and Adams’ relationship — beyond now wondering if they’re alive. If we know Simone, she’s not keeping this secret that she slept with someone else, it would eat her alive. Then the person she slept with (played by Trevor Jackson) walks in as a new intern at the hospital. Can you confirm he’ll be part of the cast for season 22?

We will see him in season 22, yes. Even though he was in both of these episodes for just a little bit, he walked in with such a presence where we know it’s going to be dynamic. He is someone who has that confidence that not many young interns have. That’s really interesting to see someone at the lower level of their career acting like he’s chief at the hospital. Also, what is that going to mean for this class above him (that includes Simone and Adams) who will be having to supervise and teach him?

Are you casting a whole new class of interns, since the current interns are now in their first year of residency?

I have a big enough cast as it is! Will maybe will have people who guest a couple times. But no, we have plenty of people that we’re very happy with.

You brought Levi back for Jo and Link’s wedding in the penultimate episode. Were there other people you wanted to bring back and how was that conversation with Jake Borelli about coming back so soon after he left the show?

There’s no character who has been here who I wouldn’t want to bring back — and even death doesn’t stop us. (Laughs) Jake was excited to come back. We always knew there would be a wedding at one point, but we didn’t know that we were definitely going to do it this season. As we were looking at what our finale was going to be, the writers came to me and they said, “We think we should do the wedding the episode before the finale, because the finale is such a darker tone,” so to put that right before would be really lovely. When they pitched me that I thought, “Well, we can’t have them get married without Jake.” We asked, “Can we bring Jake back?” They said yes. We called Jake and I walked him through the story and he thought that was such a great moment for Levi to be able to show Jo what being a mom is, and to marry them and walk her down the aisle showed such lovely evolution of their friendship.

Ellen also returns as Meredith for the finale. At the start of the episode, it seemed like you were setting her up to leave the hospital for good, but by the end we see that you’re actually setting her up to stay. She wants to come back to Grey Sloan to operate on her own schedule, around her family and her Alzheimer’s disease research. You were renewed for season 22 and she’s returning as an executive producer. Will we be seeing her more onscreen next season than we did this year?

We don’t quite know the answer to that yet, but as much as she’s willing to come hang out and play with us, we will have her!

Will you still approach filming her arcs in blocks and recurring stories, like this season?

Yeah, we try to do that just so that we can accommodate her schedule. She likes to develop and produce other projects. So what usually happens is that in the beginning of the season I talk to her about her availability and what she’s looking for, so it’s a cooperation between her and the show. I mean, she’s been there for 22 years. She is able to have a say in what it might look like.

Throughout her press run for her Hulu series Good American Family, she was asked many times about her future on Grey’s and I’m sure you saw her answers. She said she’s not going anywhere, that it would make no sense emotionally or financially for her to leave. Have you spoken to her about how doing this other role has impacted her feelings about Grey’s?

I spoke to her yesterday. We speak frequently. I went to her star ceremony on Hollywood Walk of Fame, and that was so amazing to see. Good American Family is doing really well. I think she’s really happy with its success and very proud of it. I can’t speak for her, but to be able to walk away and do something that’s different after playing the same character for 21 years and then be able to have it be such a success, I mean, if it were me, I’d feel great! Because, you know, people call her “Meredith” on the street. There were so many fans on Hollywood Boulevard shouting, “Meredith, Meredith!”

I’m so happy for her. Also, she is making it all work. She was on our set the week that Good American Family premiered. So she was going back and forth between press for that show and coming to Grey’s, still dedicated to our show. Everyone was watching GAF and supporting her and asking her about it. There are some dark moments! Also it’s such a crazy story, the true story. So of course, we want her to succeed. If she succeeds, we succeed.

Sandra Oh recently said she’s been thinking more about Grey’s than she ever has before. Did you see that headline?

I did. I wanted to be like, “Call me!” (Laughs) I did see it. I think she recognizes the history and legacy of the show, and she played such a big part in that. Gosh, if I could have her back, I’d love to have her come be in an episode.

What would you dream to have Yang come back and do?

The list is very long. But we love everyone that’s been on the show. Every writer in that writers room is always pitching for someone to come back. We just try to do it not all the time because then it’s not as special.

At the ABC Ufronts, Craig Erwich cited Grey’s, 9-1-1 and Rookie as “old shows” that aren’t old because you keep being discovered by new generations. You’ve been digging from the well of nostalgia since taking over, is that your secret sauce to satisfying original fans while also courting new ones?

I think that’s my love for the show, the Easter eggs. And probably just my memory of the show. We try to keep it new and fresh at the same time as delivering that sense of nostalgia. When you’ve been on for so long, clearly we’re a comfort to a lot of people. When the world is changing every day the way it does, sometimes we’re going to cliffhang! But other times it’s nice to throw in a couple of Easter eggs and remind people why this show is so great. We’re here because of the fan’s love for us so it’s also my return of the love.

This was your first full season as showrunner, since season 20 was shortened to 10 episodes due to COVID. What did you learn from showrunning this season?

That 18 (episodes) is a lot longer than 10! Probably the most I’ve learned is to carve out time to keep myself healthy. Stamina. And make sure that you that you are a cheerleader, even if you’re tired. Being at the top, you have to make sure other people have the stamina. So it’s about helping to encourage and support that. I learned a lot of things. Post(-production) for 18 episodes is also a lot longer than 10 episodes — longer is harder.

In the beginning of the season when we spoke, you said, “I’ll push any boundaries they’ll let me push.” What are you most proud of that you pushed?

We had a lot of big shows this season. We had a blood explosion. We had an actual explosion. We had a helicopter. We had a character almost dying in a car accident. We had the window washer come through a wall. I felt like we really pushed every episode to have that memorable event and I am proud of that. I also love quieter shows, but I felt like we really pushed it in terms of there being something big in every episode, especially with today’s limitation on budget and making sure that we don’t work really long hours. We were able to accomplish all that and make some really exciting TV.

Climate change was a theme going into the season, federal funding came up in the finale. You tackle access to healthcare a lot, especially for women. What were some of the real-world issues you think had the most impact?

People really responded to the climate change stories. There was a lot of press about it. We are doing a panel at the Hollywood Climate Summit. Especially with the increasing heat, and then we had no idea what would happen in January in L.A. (with the wildfires). That was something people really responded to. So many of us were personally affected by the fires so we were very happy that we told those episodes, especially when that happened, because we all got blindsided. It was awful.

After going through the experience of the fires, will you write that into season 22?

I don’t know. Obviously, we’re not a show like Station 19. I would have to see how people feel about that because we had crew members who lost homes and we’re going to be rebuilding for a very long time. It’s something to think about. Climate change is definitely something we’ll always continue to revisit because hospitals are so affected by it.

Do you think your 10 p.m. time slot move this season was a success?

I do. So many people watch us no matter where we are, and I think a lot of us were brought up in time slots being everything. But now with streaming and Hulu and so many people watching us in different ways, they’ll find us no matter where we are.

So much of the medical landscape has changed with Trump in office. Grey’s isn’t a political show, but is this administration inspiring things you want to do?

I always jot down notes, but I make sure that it’s from the doctor’s perspective. I’ll jot down a note to ask a medical professional what they think about it. Because, we’re not a political show. We appeal to all types of viewers. So if it’s something directly affecting surgeons and how hospitals run, for sure. But if it’s just clickbait, no.

What surprised you most about something that went viral this season?

Bailey always goes viral, anything she does. It brings me such joy that character is still giving little mic drops throughout the year. I also feel like a lot of people responded to the guys playing golf (laughs) and Warren having bromances with different guys on the show.

Since we saw that Warren wasn’t in the blast, is he officially back for season 22 (he returned to Grey’s after Station 19 ended)?

Well, he’s alive, but he doesn’t have a job. But he is still married to Bailey!

And to wrap, your favorite question: How many seasons do you want to go… 50?

(Laughs) I hope to be here as long as they’ll have me. I love this show. I love working for Shonda (Rhimes, creator). It’s home. I’m in it to win it so let’s see how long they can keep us going. I’m here.

***

Grey’s Anatomy season 21 episodes stream on Hulu, with the finale available on Friday.