Israeli historian Ilan Pape: 'This is the final phase of Zionism' | Israel-Palestine Conflict News
Copenhagen, Denmark – On a cold Saturday morning in Copenhagen, Ilan Pape warmed up in a movie theater, chatting and joking in fluent Arabic with one of the conference organizers while sipping black coffee from a paper cup. He will give a speech soon.
Pape said that unlike other Israelis, he learned the “colonial” language by spending time in Palestine, hanging out with Palestinian friends and taking formal Arabic classes.
Hundreds of academics, officials, international human rights activists and ordinary Danes, horrified by Israel's genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, attended an event in the Danish capital organized by the European Palestine Network.
The organization was recently founded and its members include Danes of Palestinian origin.
Papé later told the audience that he had been shocked by Europe's response since Israel's recent war on Gaza began.
“I am as surprised as many people by Europe's position,” he said on stage. “Europe, which claims to be the paragon of civilization, ignores the most televised genocide of modern times.”
Al Jazeera spoke on the sidelines with 70-year-old Pape, a prominent Israeli historian, author and professor who has spent much of his life fighting for Palestinian rights. We asked him about Zionism, unity and what he thinks the changing political landscape in the United States means for Gaza.
Al Jazeera: You have long said that Zionism is a nationalist political ideology that calls for the establishment of a Jewish state, and that its tools include land seizure and expulsion. Over the past 15 months, Gaza has suffered daily mass killings. What phase of Zionism are we witnessing?
Ilan Pape: We are in a state of what could be defined as a new Zionism. The old values of Zionism are now more extreme, (in) a more aggressive form than before, trying to achieve in a short time what the previous generation of Zionists tried to achieve by (a) longer, more, progressive, progressive way.
This is the new Zionist leadership's attempt to finish what they started in 1948, which is to formally take over all of historical Palestine, and in the same process get rid of as many Palestinians as possible, and (which is) create a new The Israeli empire, feared or respected by its neighbors, can therefore expand its territory even beyond mandatory or historic Palestinian borders.
Historically, I would say cautiously, this is the final phase of Zionism. Historically, the development of such ideological movements, whether colonial or imperial, has usually been the last chapter (i.e.) the most brutal and also the most ambitious. Then it's too much and they collapse.
Al Jazeera: With Donald Trump in the White House for the second time, a new political landscape is about to emerge. He has been even more vocal on social media, with tech billionaire and X owner Elon Musk praising Israel's policies and its military, as well as being a senior figure in his government. How do you see the impact of the presidency on Israel? Will the war in Gaza continue?
cardboard: It's hard to see anything positive in Trump's second term and his relationship with Elon Musk.
The future of Israel and Zionism is tied to the future of America.
I don’t think all Americans are Trump supporters. I don’t think all Americans are Elon Musk supporters.
(But) I’m afraid not much can be done in the next two to three years.
The only good news is that populist leaders like (US President-elect Donald) Trump and lunatics like Elon Musk are less than capable. They will destroy the American economy and America's international standing, so if these people lead the United States, America will end badly.
In the long term, I think this could lead to less U.S. involvement in the Middle East. To me, the situation with minimal US involvement is a positive one.
We need international intervention not just in Palestine but in the Arab world as a whole, but it must come from the global South, not the global North. The North Country has left such a legacy that few would consider people from the North Country to be honest brokers. I'm very worried about the short term and I don't want to be misunderstood. I see no force that can prevent the short-term disaster that awaits us.
When I look at the broader picture, I think we're at the end of a very bad chapter for humanity, not the beginning of a bad one.
Al Jazeera: Ceasefire negotiations are currently underway. When do you expect peace to be achieved in Palestine?
cardboard: I don't know, but I do think that, unfortunately, the ceasefire in Gaza is not the end either because of the genocide. Hopefully there will be enough power to stop it, or at least tame it or limit it.
In the long run, I can see a long process. I'm talking 20 years, but I do think we're at the beginning of that process.
It is a process of decolonization that is a settler colonial project.
Either way works. We know this from history. Decolonization can be very violent and does not necessarily lead to a better regime, but it can also be an opportunity to build something better, a win-win for all parties involved and the region as a whole.
Al Jazeera: To Palestinians and many observers, it seems the world is just standing by while Israel expands into its neighbors and commits genocide with impunity.
cardboard: So the last stage is a long process from a historical perspective. This is not an immediate process. It's not a question of if, but when. This will definitely take time.
Progress at the regional and global levels enables this phase to continue. Whether it’s the rise of populist politicians like Trump, the power of multinational corporations, the rise of fascism, the new right of fascism in Europe, or the level of corruption in some Arab countries, all of this is done in a way that maintains economic order operation. The global alliance allows Israel to do what it does, but there is another alliance.
It doesn't have the same power, but it's widespread and relevant to many other struggles against injustice. It is quite possible that later, if not in the near future, this global sentiment will focus not only on Palestine but also on global warming, poverty, immigration, etc. – this will become stronger political force. Every small victory for other global alliances brings the Zionist project closer to its end.
Al Jazeera: What is the role of this other alliance? What could help their cause?
cardboard: There are two things. One, we don’t have an organization that contains this kind of kindness, support, solidarity, and energy to fight injustice. It needs a proper organization and some of the young people in this league seem to dislike organization and so on for good reasons. But you need this infrastructure.
The second thing is to abandon the purist approach that such movements have taken in the past and build networks and alliances that allow for people to disagree even on basic issues, but to be able to work together to stop the genocide in Gaza and liberate the colonized people.
Al Jazeera: Going back to what you said about a stronger alliance in favor of Zionism, you talked about the rise of the far right in Europe. But there are still forces of anti-Semitism.
cardboard: This unholy alliance has existed from the beginning. If you think logically, anti-Semites and Zionists have the same goal when it comes to Europe, neither of them wants to see Jews in Europe. Seeing them in Palestine could be a target for the Zionist and anti-Semitic movements.
Now there is a new unity of thought between the New Right and Israel, and that is Islamophobia.
Although the current New Right still has strong anti-Semitic or anti-Semitic elements, it mainly targets the Muslim and Arab communities. It is especially not targeted at the Jewish community.
They see Israel as the most important anti-Islamic and anti-Arab force in the world, and so identify on that level – but of course they would regret it if Jews outside Israel joined such an alliance. Even pro-Israel Jews in Europe are a little disturbed by those who wear an Israeli flag but also a Nazi flag.
Hopefully this will make them reconsider their relationship with Israel. We are already seeing signs, especially among younger generations of the American Jewish community, that they understand that Israel is now part of a political coalition that they, as American Jews, cannot identify with.
As we say, thanks to Trump and populist leaders, it allows Israel to continue to exist, but that won't exist forever in the future either.
Al Jazeera: The genocide led many people, including some Jewish groups, to study the creation of Israel and ethnic cleansing in Palestinian history. Have you ever seen a family divided over the perception of conflict?
cardboard: This doesn't happen (in Israel), but it certainly happens to Jewish families outside of Israel.
There is so much information flowing that the younger generation cannot afford to be blind. Even if they receive a good Jewish education, they can see the immorality of Israel's behavior even more.
This is mostly a generational conflict, which is a positive sign because it means the current generation is likely to be more aligned on this stance.
Al Jazeera: But in Israel, documentation of the genocide is also available to young people on social media, on TikTok and other platforms. But many still ignore the suffering of Palestinians.
cardboard: They don't get the same education as young Jews in America. They received their education from a very civilized country. That's the key. They were designed, if you will, by the Israeli education system.
I wrote an article in 1999 warning that, looking at the Israeli curriculum, the next graduates of this system would be racist fanatics, extreme and dangerous to themselves and others. Unfortunately, I was absolutely right.
This is the product of a society that is highly indoctrinated from cradle to grave.
You need to re-educate these people. You can't just show them something and hope it will move them.
They can look at a dead Palestinian baby and say “good, very good”. Dehumanization is part of Israel’s DNA and is difficult to combat simply by providing them with more information.